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Top End Rebuild on 2006 117 (got tips/suggestions?)

Discussion in 'Technical' started by SMCT, Jan 5, 2017.

  1. SMCT

    SMCT Active Member

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    In the process of replacing a front head gasket that is seeping and leaving residue between the head and cylinder. Since it's winter here, I figure I would tear it down, both heads as well as taking the cylinders off as well. I am in the understanding that there is power to be had with milling the jugs to bring the piston closer to the cylinders deck surface. From what I read, I have been told that the S&S 117 pistons in relation to the deck surface is around .055 down. I'd like to use an multi layer system (MLS) head gasket such as Cometics, if there is an offering. I am also interested in a suggestion for the base gaskets as well, as I don't want issues in the future. Suggestions on cams would be welcomed and suggestions or tips on the process would also be welcomed. I've read something about a compression release tool? Needed or not? head gasket 1.jpg
     
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  2. cdogg556

    cdogg556 Guru

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    Well Andy all I can say is I went with the S&S gaskets and did not do anything like decking the heads cause I figured I already was pinging so why increase the compression unless I had access to higher octane fuel, you can get thinner head gaskets to increase it slightly, but I don't know if that's even worth it really, my opinion would be tare it down, clean all the carbon off your pistons and top of cylinders, install new gasket kit, be sure to follow torque sequence plus the additional 1/4 turn or you will be doing it over again, and I would recommend a S&S 585 cam for it, the difference is amazing, you will be happy without a doubt! :old2:
     
  3. cdogg556

    cdogg556 Guru

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    Paul I used to think the same thing, Ker and Franco would hammer me on installing a 585 cam in my bike, finally I listened and it was one of the easiest installs to do, I wish I would have done it sooner! Still the best "Bang for your Buck" modification you can do to your bike! Just do it, you'll be fine, and we'll help ya through it! :old2:
     
  4. Thors

    Thors Active Member

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    Just finished a top end rebuild on an 05. John Sachs did the heads and "spin-dropped" them (think that's the term he used) so I didn't have to play with the cylinders. Setup for a 600 cam. Do to work and kids and all that fun stuff I just got it back together recently and went for a couple very cold rides. Rips it up something fierce now! John was great to work with, definitely gets my recommendation. He also supplied the new intake and cometic gaskets. Give him a shout!
     
  5. JR03CHOPPER

    JR03CHOPPER Well-Known Member

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    Andy, just replaced the rear gasket before Biketoberfest and now I am replacing the front. Wildsteed Worx has the gaskets. Top end kits have the base gasket as well, but not the rocker boxes! Go figure. Curtis has a whole engine kit though. Every gasket and gromlet you need. John Sachs gave me a tip too about putting oil on the stud bolts before tightening.
     
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  6. Th3InfamousI

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    Andy you got all the tools and knowledge to do it.

    John Sachs is the man for all this I'm sure he will chime in and I always read his posts but I suspect he will say go with a 600 and zero deck the heads. You'll have to measure not all are the same. I'm sure there's more to it because that sounds to easy . I also believe the 117 EPA the intake and exhaust valves are on the small side so doing head work will help too.

    Have gobs of power and you'll be happy as a prick in a pecker patch.




    Sent from my 2PS64 using Tapatalk
     
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  7. john sachs

    john sachs Active Member

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    SMCT,
    If you're not going to disassemble the heads, no the releases don't need to be removed from the heads.
    Your pistons are .040" down, not around .055".
    I sell complete Cometic 117" top end gasket kits they make for me, (base gaskets and up) for these engines.
    Call me if you want the kit.
    John 386 561 - 9044
     
  8. Srodden

    Srodden Well-Known Member

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    My 2011 mastiff is stock but love the sound of the 585 however I'm liking gas mileage of original cam and bullit proof setup of S & S engine. no oil leaks or issues so haven't pulled the trigger yet. Just my thoughts on the matter.
     
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  9. SMCT

    SMCT Active Member

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    Well, it appears that I do need the compression release tool. I would like to dis-assemble these heads, clean them up and see what's going on. I gotta roll these ports out and this manifold. The texture is way to smooth to rip (atomize) any fuel as it enters the chamber. The course rolled texture will take some, if not much of that black fuel deposit away from the cylinder head. It should also sharpen up the throttle response and torque a little bit as well. From eye it appears that from the top of the guide seal to the bottom of the retainer, there doesn't leave to much extra room for aggressive cam lifts, nor am I looking for anything that would jeopardize the mechanical reliability of it, at this point. I'll measure that area when I get it apart. Interesting to see a triple valve springs and ti retainers. In taking an actual measurement of the factory head gasket, it is .039 crushed and the piston when at tdc is at least .050 on my engine. Neither here nor there, I'll stay conservative and cut .045. At a 4.125 bore with no more then about 7k for max rpm, coupled to a steel rod, I can run a total quench of .037-.040. I didn't get the base gasket off yet, so I don't know what it measures, but it appears Cometics base gasket is .027 and they list a .027, .040 and .045 head gasket. I am on deep with Cometic, as I buy bulk each month for my shop and customers, but it's not about the money, it's about helping those that help us, so if Johns got what I need, i'll pick it up from him. If I can run my compression ratio up .75 to 1.0, that would be great. I'm not looking for any sort of rocket ship, just was kinda dis-appointed in this because it's kinda a turd. The power to weight ratio doesn't see to impress me that much. My 06 Dyna with a command box and Vance and Heinz radius pipes was quicker.

    cylinder head 2.jpg Cylinder head 3.jpg Cylinder head 4.jpg
     
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  10. SMCT

    SMCT Active Member

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    P.S. With the torque or shall we say, lack of torque on the cylinder head, it's no wonder why it might have been seeping. At best it might have been about 38-40ft pds when I loosened them. All the same. Coupled with the type of gasket it is and that torque, it's no wonder why they push out often. I just want to ride this piece of shit, not work on it. I work enough on customers stuff in my shop......lol. Can't wait for to load this junker up and go to Florida in March.
     
    #10 SMCT, Jan 6, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2017
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  11. FrankBDPS

    FrankBDPS Well-Known Member

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    Wow Andy seems like you got it all figured out there. I hope you get that piece of shit turd up and running. Hopefully you can sell it to some one who will appreciate it for what it could and should be and you can go back to riding a Harley. Good luck.
     
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  12. BWG56

    BWG56 Guru

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    If you follow Bowhunter's how to ya can't screw it up and once you lift the push rod covers and turn the back tire while watching the push rods it will all make sense. I can read something a dozen times and still not understand it, but once I see it rotate or working, it becomes very easy to understand. It is very easy to do.
    You prolly already have one sitting on the shelve and ya can't ride this weekend anyway so ya might as well put it in.:whoop:
     
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  13. bdm7250

    bdm7250 Guru
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    Speaking from experience?? :sorry: naw, just a little salt on the wound..:D
     
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  14. cdogg556

    cdogg556 Guru

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    "The only source of knowledge is experience"

    Albert Einstein :old2: :oldsmile:
     
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  15. bdm7250

    bdm7250 Guru
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    :old2::old2:
     
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  16. SMCT

    SMCT Active Member

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    I was just being sarcastic Frank. I actually love the bike and everything about it. It's why I don't mind putting the effort it needs, into it. Before I bought it, I was under complete understanding that these bikes are not for the faint of heart. They need work and maintenance.
     
  17. SMCT

    SMCT Active Member

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    Making some progress and getting an understanding as to what I have. So today I took the head into the shop, cleaned it up a little and cc'd it. 90.0 cc's. Conservatively it is .045 down the piston, gasket bore 4.200 x .039 and a 4.375 stroke by a 4.125 bore and I am using 1 cc for the two valve reliefs. That yields a current compression ratio of 9.73. From what I have read, S&S claims the 117 from 2006 is 9.6, so it's close enough to determine that the compression portion is of factory, it appears. Tomorrow I will get the camshaft out. The cylinder heads have triple springs, a titanium retainer and a larger intake valve than that of factory. It measures 1.990. From what I understand, the factory valve is 1.940. Prior to actually getting the cam out to identify it, I would just make an assumption, that why would anyone just put triple springs on it and not have an aftermarket cam. Cam and applicable valve springs go hand in hand. This is starting to make sense as to why it's sluggish. Too much volume and not enough static compression to match the camshaft which would make the engine at a loss for cylinder pressure. Lack of cylinder pressure gives weak air speed, and from that weak air speed, the inability to shear fuel, and it does have a lot of what I call "fuel deposits" on the back side of the intake valve. I'll just keep plugging along and get this whole puzzle figured out.

    "Boy it sure is a beautiful bike and the candy apple is exactly what I wanted. Do you have any receipts or history on the bike?" "All I can tell you Andy is that it has a new ignition/harness because the bike cut out on me and it also has an upgraded clutch and some engine work and the shop that did it is extremely reputable and is very knowledgeable about these bikes". "Do you know exactly what was done"? "Not really Andy." "Ok, i'll take it!" lol cylinder head 90cc.jpg cylinder head cc work.jpg
     
    #17 SMCT, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
  18. Th3InfamousI

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    Well I think you answered your own question with your last paragraph. Engine work done, no idea but their reputable. That is the definition of NOT reputable

    I should just send you my jugs and heads now while you got your rig all set up

    Sent from my 2PS64 using Tapatalk
     
  19. SMCT

    SMCT Active Member

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    I could only assume by how certain things are wired and run, in a neat and nice fashion, that whomever did the work on this bike took their time and had did it professionally. There are three sides to every story, so maybe it is possible that the budget didn't allow for the extra cost to bump the compression to match what might be a bigger cam that the customer wanted installed. I have no idea as I am figuring this out by evaluating it closely. Going to see if I can fixture the jugs on my rotary broach (Comec I1000) it has PCD and CBN inserts, so the PCD insert is what cuts aluminum. I can dial it in under .001 and it leaves an incredible finish. It's just a matter of searching through my fixtures to see if I can get it to bolt up to the machines mounting plate. If not, i'll make a mount. Regardless, I most likely will be cutting the jugs next week, so drop me a private message and i'll give you my shop address.
     

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    #19 SMCT, Jan 7, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
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  20. BWG56

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    This must be weighing heavy on your mind that your posting this early, so here's what you do, make your lovely wife a nice cup of coffee and start handing her the wrenches and she'll get this done for ya:old2::whoop::chopper:
    I'm gonna pop a few more chocolates and wait to hear from ya that its in:oldhardlaugh:
     
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