tps replacement

Energy One

desertdawg

Member
I've searched the forum but can find no procedure that covers setting tps idle voltage.
I've got a call in to Tom at S&S but I think the dog feeds the tps only during key on, run selected, and starter depressed. I built a jumper that allows voltage measurement be taken but voltage ceases after the fuel pump pressures up. Service Manual gives no procedure, only voltages.
I watched a tps set on mm efi on you tube but he was getting voltage at the tps with the key on only.
anybody? ????
Thanks for looking,
Ron.
 

Jwooky

Well-Known Member
TPS is powered from the EFI (VFI) module 5V once the EFI receives ignition power.

From memory the operating range is 0.4-4V.

Not clear what you are trying to do. You should not be trying to set the Idle with the TPS! Idle is predetermined and the VFI will modulate the IAC to keep it at that value.

If you are replacing it for some reason, you should use Protune to check the voltage value at rest ~0.4v before you pull it, then adjust the new one to the same value.
 

desertdawg

Member
[QUyoJwooky, post: 689656, member: 7307"]TPS is powered from the EFI (VFI) module 5V once the EFI receives ignition power.

From memory the operating range is 0.4-4V.

Not clear what you are trying to do. You should not be trying to set the Idle with the TPS! Idle is predetermined and the VFI will modulate the IAC to keep it at that value.

If you are replacing it for some reason, you should use Protune to check the voltage value at rest ~0.4v before you pull it, then adjust the new one to the same value.[/QUOTE]
TPS is powered from the EFI (VFI) module 5V once the EFI receives ignition power.

From memory the operating range is 0.4-4V.

Not clear what you are trying to do. You should not be trying to set the Idle with the TPS! Idle is predetermined and the VFI will modulate the IAC to keep it at that value.

If you are replacing it for some reason, you should use Protune to check the voltage value at rest ~0.4v before you pull it, then adjust the new one to the same value.
Not If the old tps is worn.
book values are .48-.52
I spoke to S&S today and they first tried to tell me because I have no voltage that my wiring is wrong.
Is there no member that has actually replaced their throttle position sensor (TPS) and then set cold throttle closed voltage? It appears all Jap, Eur, and Harleys with magneti Marelli
TPS is powered from the EFI (VFI) module 5V once the EFI receives ignition power.

From memory the operating range is 0.4-4V.

Not clear what you are trying to do. You should not be trying to set the Idle with the TPS! Idle is predetermined and the VFI will modulate the IAC to keep it at that value.

If you are replacing it for some reason, you should use Protune to check the voltage value at rest ~0.4v before you pull it, then adjust the new one to the same value.
So your
TPS is powered from the EFI (VFI) module 5V once the EFI receives ignition power.

From memory the operating range is 0.4-4V.

Not clear what you are trying to do. You should not be trying to set the Idle with the TPS! Idle is predetermined and the VFI will modulate the IAC to keep it at that value.

If you are replacing it for some reason, you should use Protune to check the voltage value at rest ~0.4v before you pull it, then adjust the new one to the same value.
Sorry, poor choice of words. I'm obviously not trying to set idle with the new throttle position sensor but in fact trying to set cold ignition timing and closed loop fuel/air mixture .
what you're telling me is Protune software is the only way I can look at tps voltage?
Wow, you tube has a video of a guy setting up his magneti Marelli efi using a volt meter and Allen wrench for butterfly adjustment.
Please don't tell me to go buy a harley.
if you say I can only monitor with Protune hooked up then that's good enough for me.
Has anyone actually replaced a tps before?
Could make for a good read in the how to section. My sensor started making cold starts difficult and when riding, idle was down and big spark knock.
Thanks,
Ron.
ps. Guy at S&S told me my bike had a wiring concern when I told him no tps voltage after key on, run depressed, fuel rail pressurized.
 

Jwooky

Well-Known Member
I gave him the right answer.

I have actually replaced them. I never said protune was the only way to set it, but it's the easiest.

You can also measure the voltage on the signal line Pin 24 on VFI or C on the sensor and set int o 0.4 V.

However, if you don't have the 5V reference voltage on Pin 14 or B on sensor, then you have other problems.

Not sure where the go buy a HD and other BS comes from.
 

desertdawg

Member
Be cool folks, I appreciate the responses. My comment regarding Harley was a precursor to the sometimes ridiculous responses I've read when drawing comparisons.
I meant no disrespect Mr Wooky.
My injected k9, bought from Erldawg with 20k, to which I have added 15k, starts and runs still. It's just confused because I installed an unfamiliar tps.
I understand the protune discussion to which I may have to default. But, if one was able to measure throttle closed voltage at the sensor, once set then the vfi/ecu would just run its established map and no harm no foul.
the jumper I built connects between the harness and the tps. It has contact points to which I can connect a voltage meter. With that being said should I see continous 5V at either red+ or white (please pardon the color not looking at the schematic) which I think is the monitoring circuit with key on engine off? I'm sorry, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, I'm just trying to gain a complete understanding of how my motorcycle functions. You are my best source as it's my opinion, S&S patronizes me and here in tucson, the harley people just really couldn't care less as long as they're gouging you.
After checking with the good Ole hd parts department they quoted $95.00 for the tps and could ship in by the following week! Went on line and purchased for $37.00 + $9.00 shipping. Got it in two days from ohio.
Thanks again to you guys for listening and the help.
Ron.
ps. a while back i tried to search and ask if the metzler 260 tire would fit my wife's 06 250 mastiff. Never really got a affirmation so i went ahead and purchased one. Fit perfect....just FYI.
 
Last edited:

Jwooky

Well-Known Member
I'm still a little unclear on what you have going on. I gather you replaced the TPS for some reason, and now you think it may be "confused "?

There is not much variability in the set position..

At any rate, there are 3 circuits, 5v reference feed-red, ground -black and the signal feed back to the VFI -grey.

At closed throttle the signal should be ~0.4 V.

At WOT it should be ~4V.
 

desertdawg

Member
Thanks,
The tps sensor has slotted mounting so it can be adjusted clock wise or ccw.
I thought once I was able to set the throttle closed voltage correctly the vfi/ecu would just carry on business as usual.
If I, using evm, test for 5v at red and black, there is no voltage with key on. When run is depressed the circuit is energized but stops right when the fuel rail finishes pressurizing. I never tried the evm to red and hard ground or gray monitoring wire and hard ground. My thoughts based on what i saw was the vfi/ecu doesn't see constant power until the start button is depressed and then continues as engine fires. Just a side thought. Red check engine light extinguishes following rail pressurization. If the tps in out of calibration why wouldn't that light stay on if it is still powered following run being depressed. I don't think the ecu monitors the sensors unless the engine is in start or running. Light comes on during start and if once started sees a problem with out of range voltages. Is literature available that discusses theory or design operation of injected big dog motorcycle?
Thanks again for the input.
 

Jwooky

Well-Known Member
Once you hit run, you should see 5v at the TPS continuous.

As previously stated if you don't, that is your issue.

You need to verify the integrity of the circuit back to pin 14 on the VFI, as well as the ground.

If what your reporting is accurate then you either have a wiring issue or the VFI is bad.

I'm not sure what theory or design you want to know about. The EFI system is what I would consider typical of most EFI systems.

Do you have a service manual? If not I can send you one.
 

cdogg556

Guru
Ok, I am freaking confused as hell, what the heck it a TPI sensor again? and where is this thing? JJ you sure seem to know a lot about this TPI thing, maybe you can explain it in laymans terms! Lol!
 

desertdawg

Member
Thanks J. I have the service manual. The service manual only devotes 3 paragraphs to the powering up sequence as it pertains to key on, pcb to run, and pcb to start. What it fails to explain is how the efi/ecu comes on line both in values and timing. What the manual is missing in essence is a complete chapter on the S&S/magneti marelli system our efi bikes have.
Ill go with protune this weekend. You my friend can't know the appreciation i have that you took the time to respond with educated feed back. Thanks.
Ps...c Dogg
throttle position sensor (TPS)
Located on the injection bore at your right knee if your riding an efi big dog.
Electrical component adjacent to the right leading edge of the rear cylinder head.
controls timing and air fuel mixture through the ecu based on throttle position when the bike is either cold or warmed up.
definitely a wear item.
 
Last edited:

Sven

Well-Known Member
TPS = Throttle Position Sensor

I have an X which is rpm and Y which is throttle position. Where am I on the map if I see 2,000 rpm (X) and my throttle position (Y) is opened 20%? My map now intersects X (2K) and Y (20%) and now this sends the fuel trim of the map cell number, meaning, my duty cycle needs this much fuel at 2,000 rpm to this percentage opening.

If my range (for argument sake) is .04v at closed throttle and 4.0v for WOT, I must watch my volt meter show this [key on, dead engine] I simply turn the TPS in between that slot till it shows said parameters. If I run .7v at closed throttle, 4.3v at WOT, my calculation will be altered, be out of range, send the math calc into a 'backup' system by the math signal. By using this out of range setting of the TPS, the math will calc into a 'safe zone' of LIMP. This will change the performance or driveability to be out of spec, which sends the calculations into a backup formula to save the engine.

For me to have ideal fueling at FULL POWER, I must meet the spec parameters or my bike runs like shit, meaning, I think I have a peppier bike, but really the tune is detuned, the torque changes to a lower setting. Therefore, my sensor has to be within spec between wires, and now my position has to be within said range of 0-to-WOT. If I fall [out of spec], it goes into backup, literally handcuffed by natural design. If it [falls out of position], it reverts to the same flipflop backed up math. It's all about 'input volts' equals 'output demand.'

Complex yet so easy. It is watt it is-best I can describe.

The short:

The black box defaults to said ignition timing, at the same time, it runs the fuel parameters [not on the map] cell it once was. By both being out of spec parts wise, and dial-in wise, one must follow the blueprinted specs, or you'll be in limp mode/backup/fail-safe. It's that simple is the handcuffing of ohm's law and magnetism being the handcuffer.


The tps sensor has slotted mounting so it can be adjusted clock wise or ccw.
Correct. It's possible to wait for the signal a second or two to math out. And too, check when tightened, key off, back on, a couple of rips to the throttle... remains constant is all you are looking for.

I thought once I was able to set the throttle closed voltage correctly the vfi/ecu would just carry on business as usual.
It will. Closed or open, it's the spec and the ecu takes care of the rest.

If the tps in out of calibration why wouldn't that light stay on if it is still powered following run being depressed.
The ecu is in a constant, 'who's sending in the correct spec number?' That's 1000's of times to keep up with rpm, right? So it's a simple magnetic flipflop to turn off the light or turn on the light. Light on says a bad signal entered/short to ground/not plugged in/etc. Light off is A-OK. It's either or by designed handcuffing that occurs is a flip or a flop, an on or an off... it's that simple a move is a processor.

I don't think the ecu monitors the sensors unless the engine is in start or running.
I'm going to use the handcuff to show it. Unplug something and the ecu turns on a light. Plug it back in, I don't care if the key stays on or not, that wire is being pinged 1000's of times is the monitoring. Either way, everything grounds with key off, new slate with key on. Is a senor out of spec? Is a light on? Then it's out of spec/internally burnt/wire not hooked up/etc.; are the basics.

Light comes on during start and if once started sees a problem with out of range voltages. Is literature available that discusses theory or design operation of injected big dog motorcycle?
Thanks again for the input.
Sadly, no. You need to know this shit going in. Before you open a bike manual, you need to know the basics. Only time you need the book is to see the blueprinted numbers to compare how burnt is the sensor in or out of spec?
 

Sven

Well-Known Member
I'm still a little unclear on what you have going on. I gather you replaced the TPS for some reason, and now you think it may be "confused "?
Same here. Did we find the senor bad or is this 'throwing parts at it?' It's all about 'within spec.'


There is not much variability in the set position..
True, but are we talking a pre-windup? The spring has to follow or return back meaning. Does that have to be done first?

At any rate, there are 3 circuits, 5v reference feed-red, ground -black and the signal feed back to the VFI -grey.
So really the sig-back is a given. The volt wire and ground wire are more important they show themselves first.

At closed throttle the signal should be ~0.4 V.

At WOT it should be ~4V.
And the question is, who cares where you start, it better dial in [both ways] or else.
 

cdogg556

Guru
First off, its TPS, throttle position sensor, not TPI:willynilly::oldsmile: and 2nd, you don't have EFI, so no worries :oldangry::oldswear::oldhardlaugh::oldhardlaugh:
Hey wanker! Don't get all up in my grille cause I asked a question!:oldnono: At least I am not affraid to admit that I don't know something "Mr. Smarty Pants!":spank::pill: Oh, look at me!I am so smart cause I know what TPS means! :oldroll: Wanker! Lol!:oldlaugh:
 

desertdawg

Member
Thanks sven,
Old Tps out, new in, voltage set with protune.
J was right by insisting that protune is a needed tool in the box. It's just so easy. Cleared codes and all's cool.
Talked to S&S about that injection literature I was ranting about and he suggested 2002 softail service manual. I won't feel comfortable with my bike until I personally know how to tune it. Just the way I am.
I'm sure those of you "in the know" understand.
Thanks again for the lesson!
Ron
Ps... don't you mean "bloody wanker"? Sounds so much more British. :)
 
Top