07 K9 Knocking Bad - Suggestions? I'm stumped....

[snypr]

Here is the scenario......the steel collar on the front intake valve breaks in 3 pieces, valve stays open, piston comes up and turns it into a "Z".

Disassembled front head and cylinder completely. Only damage was the collar, valve, and valve guide and a small moon shape ding from the valve on the top of the piston.

Replaced damaged parts and put it all back together, fired right up but is knocking bad down below cylinders at midpoint on the motor.

Next I thought the compensator may have spun loose. Took primary cover off to find gray metallic primary fluid, the tension bracket floating inplace with only the bottom allen head. top allen head completely unthreaded.

Cleaned everything tightened bracket and adjusted primary chain, then rotated rear wheel in gear to check if compensator had free play. There was none. Started engine back up and the knock was the same but a bit louder with the primary cover off.

I'm stumped short of tearing down the whole motor. Any Master Techs out there with any suggestions?:bang:

 

[bigdogtech01]

Here is the scenario......while decellerating agressively to avoid a fender bender the steel collar on the front intake valve breaks in 3 pieces, valve stays open, piston comes up and turns it into a "Z".

Disassembled front head and cylinder completely. Only damage was the collar, valve, and valve guide and a small moon shape ding from the valve on the top of the piston.

Put it all back together, fired right up but is knocking bad down below cylinders at midpoint on the motor.

Next I thought the compensator may have spun loose. Took primary cover off to find gray metallic primary fluid, the tension bracket floating inplace with only the bottom allen head. top allen head completely unthreaded.

Cleaned everything tightened bracket and adjusted primary chain, then rotated rear wheel in gear to check if compensator had free play. There was none. Started engine back up and the knock was the same but a bit louder with the primary cover off.

I'm stumped short of tearing down the whole motor. Any Master Techs out there with any suggestions?:bang:

SO you put the motor back together with the bent valve and damaged piston? You did this by slowing the bike down fast? Just does not make sense how you could have done this........?
If the piston came up on it's compression stroke and the valve was in the way, bent and stuck open, hitting this could have bent a rod, if it hit with that much force.
Otherwise, you may have other issues in the crank such as twisted flywheel halves.
So the primary chain shoe fell off? You replaced it with new?

 

[snypr]

NO, the head was re-assembled with a new intake valve (lapped and ground), valve guide and steel collar. The damage on the piston was not significant (no cracks, pin and pins within specs) Both rods were checked for straightness. Started motor with rocker covers off and top end had no noise. The primary shoe didn't fall off, the two mounting bolts came loose some how (possibly loose before the valve issue). The bottom allen head was about half untreaded and the only thing holding the shoe assembly in tact.

 

[Vegas]

Piston slap? Does it go away or get better with heat?

 

[RADAMS445]

Been my experience that interference between valve and piston will damage the rod bearing , causing rod to crank knock.Pull a plug wire off when its running and see if it changes the knock.This sometimes help center the location of the knock.

 

[john sachs]

Did you find all the pieces of the broken parts?Was the new guide sized properly for the new valve?
How much run out do you have on the motor sprocket shaft,or trans.mainshaft?
As always,hard to diagnose without hearing the noise.:bang:
John

 

[DRBarnhart]

Been my experience that interference between valve and piston will damage the rod bearing...

That or a main bearing.

Dennis

 

[TheDeadOne]

Like John stated, it hard to determine without actually hearing.

Seeing that you said that you bent the valve in a Z pattern, that's a pretty hard hit on the valve and "valve train" components. I'd be sure to check the rockers,push rods, lifters and also cam.

After that, if the noise is still there, I'd suggest pulling it back down and thoroughly checking out the cylinder that the valve was bent. Looking at the rod once again, rod & crank bearings, wrist pin and the piston skirt (in the wrist pin area) for damage.

But I'm leaning towards more valve train damage, the bottom end is much stronger than the rest of the valve train components.

Hope this helps! Good Luck! :2thumbs:

dead

 

[reloaderbmg]

start the engine with the spark plug out the the bad cyl. check noise!

 

[snypr]

Yes, I found all the pieces. Only pieces were the pieces of the steel collar which stayed in the rocker box. I took it back apart and inspected wrist pin in connecting rod which has .003 of end play to the outer end of the pin. The piston under closer inspection shows some wear to the lower end of the skirt to rear of cyclinder (possible piston slap as Vegas stated?) Both rods at the adjuster end have about .015 of wobble to them. The connecting rod to crank seems to be fine....however I am not sure how much lateral run out is the norm for side to side movement? I am going to go ahead and replace the rods, piston and rings for good measure and then check the noise again without the plug in.

Thanks to all of you for your input and help. Hopefully, this will remedy the problem. If not its a good excuse to completely tear down and rebuild and turn it into a 124". I will post the results of the outcome. Thanks Again!

 

[TheDeadOne]

No it doesn't

? who are you replying to? noise?

 

[snypr]

I was summarizing to all...Thanks

 

[snypr]

Did you find all the pieces of the broken parts?Was the new guide sized properly for the new valve?
How much run out do you have on the motor sprocket shaft,or trans.mainshaft?
As always,hard to diagnose without hearing the noise.:bang:
John

The new guide and valve was properly sized. I have not checked the run out. However, I went a head and tore down the rear cylinder to find that some pieces of the broken valve guide transferred from the front cylinder to the rear cylinder via the intake manifold. Damaged top of piston and rear cylinder push rods are slightly bent.

How much lateral play is allowed or the norm for the front and rear connecting rod? As the front connecting rod has about .060 side to side and the rear about .030. I am hoping that I don't have to completely tear down the motor :loony:

 

[snypr]

Piston slap? Does it go away or get better with heat?

No it stays the same.

 

[Throttle Jockey]

Once you break a valve guide it can end up everywhere. I had peices in a breather gear one time in 85. You need to tear it down.

TJ

 

[outdoorsman26]

you have metal floating around in your motor and you have not took the cyl off to see what happened........ ummmm I (and this is just me) would take the whole thing apart just to make sure there are no bearings that are bad,rods bent,ect and make sure that there is nothing else floatin around ur motor

 

[snypr]

you have metal floating around in your motor and you have not took the cyl off to see what happened........ ummmm I (and this is just me) would take the whole thing apart just to make sure there are no bearings that are bad,rods bent,ect and make sure that there is nothing else floatin around ur motor

I went a head and tore the whole top end down, did find metal in the rear cylinder as well. Everything below appears to be within the norm as compared to others in the past. I am going to hone and deck cylinders, install new piston set, install .600 cam and see what happens. Can't bring myself to tear the whole thing down. Hopefully the irish will be looking out for me, if not it will all come apart. Thanks!

 

[BadBrad]

Just out of curiosity, do you have the TP rocker boxes or the S&S? I would look at finding the root cause and make sure you don't go through this again. There's a lot of information listed here on the forum on the geometry misalignment of TP rocker boxes that cause valve guide wearing issues. Just a thought! Good luck.

 

[snypr]

Just out of curiosity, do you have the TP rocker boxes or the S&S? I would look at finding the root cause and make sure you don't go through this again. There's a lot of information listed here on the forum on the geometry misalignment of TP rocker boxes that cause valve guide wearing issues. Just a thought! Good luck.

It appears that I am lucky with my motor as compared to some 07 117's. I have all S&S everything on the top end too include .640 top collars, valve springs and roller rockers all from factory.

One thing I did notice while in tear down that the front rocker box did not have half of the oil on the top as did the rear. Also, when taking the push rod tubes out there was limited amount of oil on top of the front cyclinder lifters as compared to the rear. Potentially, I think this may have contributed to the collar breaking and valve sticking

 

[BadBrad]

It appears that I am lucky with my motor as compared to some 07 117's. I have all S&S everything on the top end too include .640 top collars, valve springs and roller rockers all from factory.

One thing I did notice while in tear down that the front rocker box did not have half of the oil on the top as did the rear. Also, when taking the push rod tubes out there was limited amount of oil on top of the front cyclinder lifters as compared to the rear. Potentially, I think this may have contributed to the collar breaking and valve sticking

Hmmm. I'm not sure if that's a factor or not. It could just be the way the bike is leaning and the way the rocker boxes are draining. I've torn mine down but really never paid much attention as to the drain ports and how the rear and front cylinders may differ draining while sitting on the kickstand. Some of these other guys might be able to chime in and tell you. You may be able to look and see yourself. If you have a rocker box that has a lot of oil, you may have a drain that is partially blocked. Just something to check while you have it apart.