07/08 Clutch

[JeffM]

Hi all,
I am having trouble getting my head around a few threads regarding the amount of plates and disc's in the clutch.

I don't want to pull covers off and count plates as i don't have a BDM dealer on the next corner who i can buy parts from.

So my questions are.
1. How many plates/discs should i have for an 07/08 K9?
2. Whats this changing from 12 to a 9 pack i keep reading about, and why and how does 9 fill the void of the 12?
3. My Manual tells me nothing about plates except heights of the packs, but does not explain how this is done and what you are measuring.
4. Push rod length, why is this important? Surely if you still have thread on your push rod through the nut the lenght is irrelevent?
5. Then there is the internal and external teeth, again with the different amount WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!:bang:
6. Is there someone out there in BDM land who has the wisdom of Solomon who can make the waters clearer to this mear mortal
7. Who is the best supplier to export me the correct quality parts to make my Dog bark?
8. Would a different brand, type of clutch make a difference? My clutch is lighter than Attitud2's 250 and all i have changed is the pipes so no big power gains, but still it is slipping and can't get neutual while stationary, it also creeps forward while stopped and the clutch is adjusted perfectly.

Thanks in advance.
Jeff

 

[KaptinAmerika]

Im not sure about 9 disc clutch packs.
I only know that my 06 stock clutch pack had 12 plates. I don't know if BD went to fouteen after 06. If you count the plates in the Manual it appears as though they did.
When I bought my Bandit Bruiser system the big push was the 2 additional friction plates to increase the clutch area by 17%.
I have a 124 pushing 135hp and I weigh three hundred pounds and I have yet to get the clutch to slip in my K9 since I installed the Bandit system.

 

[Iman]

My 08 has 9

 

[BigDogBro1]

Our later SN 2007 Bulldogs came stock with the 12 plate clutch and we changed to the Soft Pull 9 plate clutch pack and the actuator ramp system.

The 9 plate unit uses the same friction plates as the stock 12 plate clutch but the steel plates are thicker in the 9 plate clutch pack. Teeth count for both units are identical. There are dimensions for overall stack height but both plate thicknesses are important as well.

Energy One is a forum sponser and is the manufacturer of the clutch pack. I'm not sure about the ramp system mfgr. probably Baker Drivetrain near Lansing MI, USA. Energy One sells replacement clutch packs that are sized for the proper stack height for either system.

The ramp systems are marked for Soft Pull or Stock but I can't recall what the markings were. I do recall an earlier post that had that information.

I think BDM went to the 9 plate Soft Pull clutch system on 08.

JeffM: It sounds like your clutch is not properly adjusted, you need clutch maintenance. You could have glazed, burn't or warped the clutch plates if the clutch excessively slips under power. When my clutch nut came loose for the first time last fall I removed and cleaned and lubed the clutch lever assembly and the ball ramp assembly besides retightening the clutch hub nut. I adjusted the push rod and now the clutch operation is better than before.

Hope this helps.

 

[BWG56]

Hi all,
I am having trouble getting my head around a few threads regarding the amount of plates and disc's in the clutch.


So my questions are.
1. How many plates/discs should i have for an 07/08 K9?

2. Whats this changing from 12 to a 9 pack i keep reading about, and why and how does 9 fill the void of the 12?

4. Push rod length, why is this important? Surely if you still have thread on your push rod through the nut the lenght is irrelevent?


Thanks in advance.
Jeff

1- I think the 08 had the easy pull clutch with the 9 disc's. 07 had 12 no easy pull

2- The disc's/plates are thicker with the 9

4- If you bottom the push rod on the hydraulic lifter you could have the valve always open and worse is to hit the piston. OUCH:bang:

 

[KaptinAmerika]

Our 07 Bulldogs came stock with the 12 plate clutch and we changed to the Soft Pull 9 plate clutch pack and the actuator ramp system.

The 9 plate unit uses the same friction plates as the stock 12 plate clutch but the steel plates are thicker in the 9 plate clutch pack.

I would assume then, since you didn't mention it, that you've had no slippage issues with your 9 plate system

 

[Bowhunter]

When I bought my '09, the dealer explained that Big Dog went with the "Easy Pull" clutch system(9 Plates) starting in '08. The '07 and earlier had the 12 plate system and he had both on the floor to allow you to feel the difference with one bike side by side with the other system. It is a noticeable difference. My '09 has had no issues of slippage in 14,000 miles with the 9 disc system.

 

[KaptinAmerika]

Thanks Bowhunter

 

[Sven]

1. How many plates/discs should i have for an 07/08 K9?:
I don't know? It [usually] starts with a friction and ends with a friction.


2. Whats this changing from 12 to a 9 pack i keep reading about, and why and how does 9 fill the void of the 12?:
I think it depends on the spacing of the clutch center and clutch outer grooves. See, the old HD steels with the riveted cage to hold the steel ball took up space with the wide cage. You just use the flats off a friction or a steel, you can make the plates thinner, the clutch basket grooves become narrower. So, are we talking old, large spaced grooves, or move tighter grooves in the basket cages?


3. My Manual tells me nothing about plates except heights of the packs, but does not explain how this is done and what you are measuring:
Plates have memory. They are installed in one direction, where all the plates line up with their stampings/cuts in one direction. Meaning, stack all the cut edges in one direction are the steels. Stack the frictions so you see a plate's outer edge that has a sharp edge like the steels, or a round end, or ink stampings. You line those up too, so all cut flats face one direction, the stamps or those cut edges of the frictions are facing the same as the steels.

The stack is having the plates fill the basket up to the point where if you pulled the pressure plate out with the clutch lever, a plate would fall out. However, this is where you are over stacked. It won't happen like that because you'll probably be too thick or too shallow. To get your arms around it, you have 3 variables:

A. The ramp system - It travels so far out is the throw.
B. The push rod - This has a preset length.
C. The adjust screw - Has so much in and out before the screw is so deep, you can see threads at the hold down nut. This says, the plates are so worn out or a plate is missing. Make sense you are stuck within so many lengths, so many ramp swings to push the rod against the pressure plate?


4. Push rod length, why is this important? Surely if you still have thread on your push rod through the nut the length is irrelevant?:

Do you sort of see how the ramp can shrink, or not throw as far, and there are your threads showing?
Do you sort of see the length of the rod is irrelevant, unless the tips are so collapsed that the length has shortened and you see the threads at the lock nut?
Do you sort of see how the frictions stack shortens, the pressure plate moves in deeper, the threads on the nut are exposed somewhat?
Do you sort of see this if you over stacked the pack, but the adjust screw is way out there now in length?

5. Then there is the internal and external teeth, again with the different amount WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!:bang: There you go. Big teeth is a thick plate that takes up the internals with 8 or 9 final plates. That extra 9 might be a rivet-less set of steels, where your cages displaced the the 9th plate [taking up the cage gap] space. The tighter teeth internals/externals are the idea that more means a better bite, less slip, etc.


6. Is there someone out there in BDM land who has the wisdom of Solomon who can make the waters clearer to this mear mortal :
It's all about clearances or stack, length of the pushing mechanics fighting the stack or that exposed thread in the lock nut like you said. So, back to ramp/stack/clearance setting is all about a preset length you stack into, all because of that ramp/rod/screw setting.

7. Who is the best supplier to export me the correct quality parts to make my Dog bark?: Most of those plates are universal in fit. Some use steel or aluminum plates, others use a different pad material. Other than that, you can mix and match materials if not racing. Mix-match steels and aluminum. Your only concern is warp and stack.

8. Would a different brand, type of clutch make a difference? My clutch is lighter than Attitud2's 250 and all i have changed is the pipes so no big power gains, but still it is slipping and can't get neutual while stationary, it also creeps forward while stopped and the clutch is adjusted perfectly.:
That bleeds two variables:

1. Certain pressure plates are spring steel. These are flat under pressure, cone shaped when static sitting on a bench. This type design has to be serviced, where you keep adding plates back into the basket so the spring steel is back to a flat position again. If that cone is caving, you still have the pressure of the cone, not where it needs to be is flat and off a friction. This way, the concave is adding slight pressure onto the friction = No joy finding N.

2. The second scenario is a warped plate. It again; touches ever so slight is the drag, and that concave of a plate is kissing the other plate and it keeps loading the gear dogs from pulling out of the slots of that transmission's shaft. So there is a drag on the main shaft. This cannot release away from the spinning outer basket. You kissing that one plate is because this is direct drive off the crank. Your priority is to have proper release without a warp that will drag the gear dogs one more time = No joy finding N.

 

[BigDogBro1]

I would assume then, since you didn't mention it, that you've had no slippage issues with your 9 plate system

No noticable slippage here when I ride it hard. All is well with the 9 plate system.

If you're a big boy at 250 to 350 pounds you might feel some slippage on a 9 plate clutch pack with some miles (7k+) on it. Don't run synthetic oil in the primary or it will slip more.

 

[JeffM]

WOW Sven, thanks for the clutch plate lesson 101.

As far as i know the clutch is properly adjusted, i know this because i adjust the clutch prior to riding the bike, so i have that covered. This leads me to thinking my chutch she is f..ked.
Once adjusted i start the motor, warm her up, work the clutch a few times and reverse down my driveway, pull the clutch in at engage 1st gear where imeadiatly the motor stalls. Restart and rev motor to 2k revs and bang into 1st then ride off, at the first set of traffic lights if i have not already selected N while rolling it WILL NOT select N and with the clutch fully pulled in and the front brake applied i manage to stay still....just.
This senerio leads me to thinking the clutch she is f..ked and time for a new set of discs and plates, i have adjusted my HD's over the last 30 years so i do have a clue on clutch adjustment.

Bike not dragged, but ridden hard i am only 86 kg, what ever that is in old speak, so i am not a Big Boy.
I don't want to go pulling things apart without having a new bit to replace it.
As for the Bandit system is there much modifying to install it? And who is the person to go to to purchace said item?

Thanks again
Jeff

 

[stlmikie]

I would try to adjust it some more Jeff. Bring it out an 8th turn or so and so if it still learches. One of our members had something similar to this happen and one of his balls slipped(add joke here). May want to check that too.

 

[Tom Chop]

JeffM; I also had saimilar problems with my `06 K-9 at approximately 25k. Bobby Schulz recomended The Bandit Bruiser along with their Bearing Carrier. I`m so glad that I followed his informed advice. The improvement to my chop has been nothing short of phenominal. Finding neutral is a non-issue and slipping is a dim memory. I only would stress that in setting the new clutch you should use a dial indicator. I did and have never had any issues at all. Thanks again Bobby!

 

[Sven]

Jeff,

Aftermarket Motorcycle Parts | Motorcycle Accessories | J&P Cycles try. They might have the brand plates and steels you need.

Yes, the pack is played out... IF... Like I mentioned..."Do you have a concave plate?" If so, that "cone drag" may be seen [if] you pop the cover off and you do see it is not flat with lever released. If the pressure plate is the thick flat aluminum style, again, the pack is junk for sure. Enough with the adjusting. :2thumbs:

No offense, but not to many people say they worked on bikes for decades as part of searching for answers. I set the tone to my answers as you never picked up a tool in your life; the fuk if I know every background of someone asking a Q? Get it? So politically correct, no refection off any question I try to answer. I speak the generic, or bottom line basics is why I can get away with most tech questions in most bike forums.

 

[BigDogBro1]

WOW Sven, thanks for the clutch plate lesson 101.

As far as i know the clutch is properly adjusted, i know this because i adjust the clutch prior to riding the bike, so i have that covered. This leads me to thinking my chutch she is f..ked.
Once adjusted i start the motor, warm her up, work the clutch a few times and reverse down my driveway, pull the clutch in at engage 1st gear where imeadiatly the motor stalls. Restart and rev motor to 2k revs and bang into 1st then ride off, at the first set of traffic lights if i have not already selected N while rolling it WILL NOT select N and with the clutch fully pulled in and the front brake applied i manage to stay still....just.
This senerio leads me to thinking the clutch she is f..ked and time for a new set of discs and plates, i have adjusted my HD's over the last 30 years so i do have a clue on clutch adjustment.

Bike not dragged, but ridden hard i am only 86 kg, what ever that is in old speak, so i am not a Big Boy.
I don't want to go pulling things apart without having a new bit to replace it.
As for the Bandit system is there much modifying to install it? And who is the person to go to to purchace said item?

Thanks again
Jeff

First of all I would never think of abusing my transmission by having to "restart and rev motor to 2k revs and bang into 1st then ride off".

You definately have a clutch problem or other issue if that's how you need to ride. If you continue to abuse that trans then you'll have more to fix than just a clutch problem.

Look....these clutches have worked fine on thousands of Bigdog bikes in the past. Either you or a knowkedgable technician needs to go through the clutch system, take some measurments on components and find your clutch problem.
If you haven't even taken off the primary cover yet, then you should do so.

Your 2008 primary cover has an outer o-ring seal and can be reused if care is taken on dissassembly.

You could have a transmission main shaft bearing problem, slipped transmission main shaft retainer clip, bad throwout bearing, weakening pressure diaphram spring, loose clutch basket nut or a number of other things that can cause your bad clutch symptoms.

Get down on you knees and get into it, take it somewhere to get it fixed or sell it.

 

[BigDogBro1]

Jeff,

Aftermarket Motorcycle Parts | Motorcycle Accessories | J&P Cycles try. They might have the brand plates and steels you need.

Yes, the pack is played out... IF... Like I mentioned..."Do you have a concave plate?" If so, that "cone drag" may be seen [if] you pop the cover off and you do see it is not flat with lever released. If the pressure plate is the thick flat aluminum style, again, the pack is junk for sure. Enough with the adjusting. :2thumbs:

No offense, but not to many people say they worked on bikes for decades as part of searching for answers. I set the tone to my answers as you never picked up a tool in your life; the fuk if I know every background of someone asking a Q? Get it? So politically correct, no refection off any question I try to answer. I speak the generic, or bottom line basics is why I can get away with most tech questions in most bike forums.

SVEN
LOOK, DAMIT!

I gave excellent (OEM: Energy One http://www.energyoneclutches.com/ ) clutch parts source information to JeffM so he can get a proper clutch pack already preset to the stack height designed for his Bigdog bike.

My post: http://www.bigdogbiker.com/forums/528809-post4.html

It PISSES me off to no end that you "SVEN" come back and give him some damn link to a damn Harley parts shop that will likely sell him the wrong shit.

STOP spewing your GENERIC motorcycle bullshit "I speak the generic" on this forum and giving misinformation to Bigdog owners if you have NEVER OWNED, REPAIRED one or probably never even SAT on one!

:angry:

 

[Bowhunter]

You go BigdogBro1!! I second that, all in favor say amen.

 

[KaptinAmerika]

AAAAAAAMEN

 

[Five Five]

damm it Sven .... your pissing my good friend off ...stay on trac

 

[Sven]

I gave excellent (OEM: Energy One Energy One Racing Clutches ) clutch parts source information to JeffM so he can get a proper clutch pack already preset to the stack height designed for his Bigdog bike.

My apologies about product sponsor here at the forum. For sure hit this place for parts.

STOP spewing your GENERIC motorcycle bullshit "I speak the generic" on this forum and giving misinformation to Bigdog owners

Take a deep breath. There is no way I am misinforming anyone. If it is not fuel, what starts an engine? If no spark, what sets the fuel off. And that compression, we have now 3 variables to the bike. If that is not specific to your bike, you need to relax and take a lesson about clutch assembly.

Now for my credibility against yours:

1. I condense my posts. You've learned how to spot drag if the plates are perfect, the steel spring plate might cause finding N and yours is the straight pressure plate? You probably figured out your buddy might have this N problem and the wave is present. Either way, I nailed both N problems being a pressure/plate or friction/steel plate. Show me I misinformed a clutch design either way. Because you can't is I covered my ass not knowing said product. You win plate design knowledge. You win plate direction assembly. This is for someone called the OP, not for you runner uppers who start in on me. If you know the bike, you better school me then. I think I know a little something about clutch. We got a problem withat? :flag:

2. If the fork tangs for the clutch inner and clutch outer match steels and frictions, yes, you see one laying around all perfectly flat, and that was the one inside that pack that stopped you from finding N? Then, it has no clue who it is sitting next to friction wise, you found N. Was that a yes or was that a no? :argue: :2thumbs: :roll: At this point finding N, does it really matter about the material is made out of? Generically speaking that is. If the plate is flat and the tangs match, I'm pretty sure you'll find N if the parts are perfect, yes or no is this misinformation? :lol:

3. Isn't the throw in the whole system all about pack? Well is it? Didn't I say the rod was this design so this ramp design measures up to this whole pack of plates? Was that a yes or no about a generic design. Was the OP misinformed about how you go about throwing the throw? Did the OP more have a concept of why the screw was being turned way too many times is the wear problem finding N? Only the runner uppers know. We better leave that to them, is that correct?

No offense, but you are one of those runner uppers I keep mentioning about? Don't be getting upset because I didn't catch the sponsor. Don't loose your cool because you got the problem, not me pal. Never tell me I'm giving out bad info when you runner uppers can't keep up with the basicshithink and you better think hard you start reading the hubbish rubbish.

You know this recalcitrant does not suffer fools.


Signed,

NOLTT :lol: