Oil not returning to oil tank?

SEAL-rider

Active Member
Note that on the washable filters a replacement paper filter is also available, so no washing needed.

Kit includes canister housing, mount plate, seals and cleanable element. Filter down to particles as small as 2.56 microns and has an intergral magnet placed in the element. Replacement stainless steel or paper elements are available separately.
 

SMCT

Active Member
Now the Crazy: I was letting the bike idle while I was looking around checking other stuff and white smoke started billowing out my exhaust like a dam car with a blown head gasket. When I revved it again - it really came out thick on the front pipe. My wife came out into the garage and said I can barely see you whats going on out here! I was so mad I wanted to take a sledge hammer to the gas tank. This 117 engine only has 11,500 miles on her. I meticulously take care of my vehicles so this blows my friggen mind.
Glen, no one quite explained what occurs in these "dry sump" engines, so I will take the time to explain so you understand. Due to the ring package and cylinders that not necessary have good support/structure (poor engineering) these engines tend to take on quite a bit of crankcase pressures. Those pressures are from not only combustion (exhaust stroke) gets past the ring package, but it's also from air/fuel as well during the compression stroke (piston ascending after intake valve closed) that gets past the ring package as well. Lets just call this a design flaw. The second design flaw is in the scavenge section of the oil pump. This is the component (gear) that is suppose to draw oil from the crankcase and put it back through the filter and into the dry sump tank (oil tank). Not only is it not that efficient in doing it's job at idle, it's pretty poor at doing it's job under rpm. If you where to build this engine out of lexan whereas you can see what's going on, you would see that at idle, it barely functions (the scavenge stage) and it's poor at best in getting that oil back to the tank. Ok, now image if you over fill it by double the amount of oil it should actually have. You've just taken that little area in the crankcase away that holds anything that comes past the ring package, and displaced that area it with oil. Where does it go? Well, it is forced up the cylinders through the oil return area and starts filling up the tapet cover area and before you know it, it belches it out of that vent tube which is hooked to your elbow that goes into your carb, and even though you are not seeing oil it pouring all over the place, it is getting consumed back into the engine. This is why it pours white smoke out. You might ask as to why someone would ever design a system whereas the breather tube goes right back into the engine. It's required by the manufacture to have the engine re-consume any sort of crankcase pressures.

Now, if some knucklehead at S&S would have designed the scavenge stage correctly for that light weight and half useless ring package, then this would never be an issue, and in actuality the engines crankcase would have vacuum and not pressures.

I know all about these systems and how they work, as I have been doing this for 33 years. Our scavenge side to the oil pumps for the engines we build in my shop, have 23 to 25 inches of vacuum in the crankcase while the engine consumes over 450 pounds per hour of fuel. That's the engines air and fuel consumed to make 175 hp per cylinder. Multiply that by 2 and you have two cylinders that are actually the same bore and stroke as these S&S engines which only make about 105. The math of the same bore and stroke in our engines would make 350hp per the 2 cylinders.

P.S. On my own personal Big Dog, I vent through the one way valve and run that line down the front frame tube and it is cut open under the bikes frame. I am only interested in burning 2 parts, and not 3. (Air and Fuel) Not air, fuel and oil.
 
Last edited:

Alexey

Active Member
Glen, no one quite explained what occurs in these "dry sump" engines, so I will take the time to explain so you understand. Due to the ring package and cylinders that not necessary have good support/structure (poor engineering) these engines tend to take on quite a bit of crankcase pressures. Those pressures are from not only combustion (exhaust stroke) gets past the ring package, but it's also from air/fuel as well during the compression stroke (piston ascending after intake valve closed) that gets past the ring package as well. Lets just call this a design flaw. The second design flaw is in the scavenge section of the oil pump. This is the component (gear) that is suppose to draw oil from the crankcase and put it back through the filter and into the dry sump tank (oil tank). Not only is it not that efficient in doing it's job at idle, it's pretty poor at doing it's job under rpm. If you where to build this engine out of lexan whereas you can see what's going on, you would see that at idle, it barely functions (the scavenge stage) and it's poor at best in getting that oil back to the tank. Ok, now image if you over fill it by double the amount of oil it should actually have. You've just taken that little area in the crankcase away that holds anything that comes past the ring package, and displaced that area it with oil. Where does it go? Well, it is forced up the cylinders through the oil return area and starts filling up the tapet cover area and before you know it, it belches it out of that vent tube which is hooked to your elbow that goes into your carb, and even though you are not seeing oil it pouring all over the place, it is getting consumed back into the engine. This is why it pours white smoke out. You might ask as to why someone would ever design a system whereas the breather tube goes right back into the engine. It's required by the manufacture to have the engine re-consume any sort of crankcase pressures.

Now, if some knucklehead at S&S would have designed the scavenge stage correctly for that light weight and half useless ring package, then this would never be an issue, and in actuality the engines crankcase would have vacuum and not pressures.

I know all about these systems and how they work, as I have been doing this for 33 years. Our scavenge side to the oil pumps for the engines we build in my shop, have 23 to 25 inches of vacuum in the crankcase while the engine consumes over 450 pounds per hour of fuel. That's the engines air and fuel consumed to make 175 hp per cylinder. Multiply that by 2 and you have two cylinders that are actually the same bore and stroke as these S&S engines which only make about 105. The math of the same bore and stroke in our engines would make 350hp per the 2 cylinders.

P.S. On my own personal Big Dog, I vent through the one way valve and run that line down the front frame tube and it is cut open under the bikes frame. I am only interested in burning 2 parts, and not 3. (Air and Fuel) Not air, fuel and oil.
I agree completely. But there are a few questions. And the oil after winter parking does not return Into the crankcase for "Sticking of the piston rings" in the grooves on the piston. Consequently, the pressure in the crankcase rises. I agree that the gears of the oil pump are too small and inefficient to return the oil. Also, you write that on your motorcycle, a breather with a one-way valve is brought down. Many people do this. From this breather can come out oil, with oil overflow and pressure in the crankcase. You are talking about the vacuum in the crankcase. Could you explain how you get the vacuum in the crankcase? I agree with you. Vacuum is good. But to achieve vacuum, can install a vacuum breather. For example, 117 motor. Breather from the front head. It is connected to the manifold. And at the intake stroke, the piston sucks the mixture from the carburetor and crankcase gases from the breather. It is through this that we get a vacuum in the crankcase. If this breather enough, that would suck all of the crankcase gases. On my motor I conducted a test. I turned off the front breather and looked at the rear. From it, the air began to flow a little and intermittently. Not smoke. Transparent air. I increased my speed. Nothing has changed. This is quite logical. And that's a good sign. A lot of smoke and oil from the big breather is very bad. This is a motor rebuild. As soon as I put the small breather on the manifold, the big breathing apparatus ceased to exhale completely. This is also a good sign. Hence the volume of crankcase gases does not exceed the capacity of the breather. But, if the oil is too much, the piston can draw oil through the front breather. Therefore, if we want only air and gasoline to burn, then we need to disconnect the front breather as well. If the crankcase has a lot of gases and oil, then through the front breather it will fall into the cylinder and burn.
But, having disconnected the vacuum breather, we lose vacuum in the crankcase.
Andy, I want to ask you, what do you think about my thoughts? Am I right or not? How to proceed? How do you get a vacuum in the crankcase?
Thank you for attention.
 

Alexey

Active Member
I was hoping you where not going to ask me that.

Where did you get this quote from? "Sticking of the piston rings"
I can not help but ask. I think the same as you. But it is always pleasant to talk with a person who has understanding in such matters.
This term is taken from the practice and theory of motorcycle repair. After very long parking or very poor gasoline with a high amount of paraffins, this phenomenon occurs. It is called "coking of piston rings". To combat this use a special liquid. It is poured into cylinders ..
 

SMCT

Active Member
When a pistons rings are pinched or as you mention "sticking of" it is due to one of two items. Hard enough Detonation can collapse the top land and pinch the ring in it's groove, or if the top of the piston comes into contact with the cylinder heads decks surface, it can collapse the top land and pinch the ring. Regardless, none of this is the case, so no sense continuing to discuss it.

What I explained should be fairly simple to understand, regarding the inherent issues of the flawed design, both in the oil pumps scavenge section, ring package, and cylinder distortion from lack of support.
 
Top